Book Reports /
Argumentative essay on 1984 - Outline [40]
I challenge you to give me any possible example of someone doing something and I will tell you where the selfish intent is. It is not possible to do anything without the goal of self benefit.
Only by playing with and misusing words, as you have been doing throughout with communism (see below before excerpting and posting angry reply). You are defining selfishness differently from me. To you, "selfishness" means "acting on whim or personal desire." To me it means "acting in furtherance of one's own self-interest." Again, words can and usually do have multiple meanings and elastic definitions when they refer to highly abstract concepts. Under your definition, every action has to be selfish, as I have to desire to undertake any action for some reason, and therefore every action I take must be the result of personal desire, i.e. selfish. For me, though, an action is selfish only if it can reasonably be viewed as advancing my actual self-interest. If it does not do this, either because I have chosen to be ruled by emotional impulse, or because I have been intimidated by someone else, or because I haven't bothered trying to figure out what constitutes my self-interest, then the action is not selfish. If you want to disagree with me, that's fine, but you will have to use my definition of the term in your refutation if you wish to do so. Otherwise, we aren't disagreeing about anything except the various ways in which we choose to use words.
There's just one problem, that wealth doesn't trickle down very well.
And yet so many people strive to come to capitalist companies even knowing they will have to start at the bottom. Almost as if poor in America was wealthy by the standards of non-capitalist countries.
Then a few more gorillas decide to start planting banana trees as well
We've officially reached the point where we're talking in circles. All of your arguments continue to assume a predominantly limited view of wealth, whereas mine assume a predominantly productive view of it. Every analogy I use will involve expanding the size of the world to one in which resource limitations are not a problem in practice, either directly (by making the island larger) or indirectly (by showing ways in which the gorillas could find other ways of producing wealth with the available resources) and all of yours will involve filling it up again so that everything is monopolized.
Don't use this as a way to justify using words incorrectly.
I'm not. Communism has two official meanings:
"1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2. (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party."
And look, both involve the notion of a state. You are using one possible definition of the term, but it is not the only recognized one, and is in fact a variation on the first meaning that is probably among the the least used of the definitions you could have used. It is one thing to say that our disagreement here is a matter of semantics. It is quite another to insist, as you do, that only your definition is right, when any dictionary will prove you wrong.
You used the word communism incorrectly so I corrected you.
No, I used it in one of its official senses, and you deliberately chose to misinterpret me. Either that, or you yourself were under a misconception, which I have now corrected.
Ha ha, I don't think you understand that I agree with you here. You don't have to keep selling me on this point. I agree.
Then the entire debate really is over semantics, and your mistaken belief that the term communism only has one meaning, and that it was different from the one that I was using.
Only if you were a fool would anyone do something like this.
I didn't want to engage in an
ad hominem attack by saying that all communists are fools. But I agree, only fools would do what I suggested. And yes, the principle is exactly the same.
Come up with a better example where the protagonist has some intelligence.
Okay. The protagonist opens a factory. He allows anyone who is able to do the job well to work in it. He pays these workers fair market value for their labor. People who had no work and were living on the street are now employed, and can afford to live in a small apartment with sufficient food and the ordinary technological devices we have come to think of as necessities, a vast improvement.
Exactly, therefore those who gain wealth by any means are not justified in doing so. But if you step in and say "No no there are rules that we live by." You would have to respond, "No No who are you to tell me what to do with what I have earned? You cant make rules that limit my freedom over what I have worked hard for! If I want to dominate others with the power I have gotten I am completely justified in doing just that! Why do I go out of my way to make my workers lives miserable for the chance of making a few more dollars?
Again, your last point is nonsensical from my point of view, given our divergent views of the nature of wealth and power. Those who own companies do not dominate their workers -- their workers are free to seek employment elsewhere. Please don't bother posting a long argument against this, btw, unless it involves a justification for the limited view of wealth. If you assume the limited view of wealth and use it as the basis of your argument, then obviously I will not find it convincing, as again, I don't accept it. You are free, of course, to try to convince me of your premise, but simply building up an argument from a premise you know I don't accept will be a waste of time.
Follow the "I can do whatever I want with what I earn" line of thought to it's logical conclusion and you will find that it justifies a lot of malicious and cruel acts.
How so? You haven't shown this. At most, even accepting your premises about wealth and power (which I don't) you can show that this may mean that those who lack the ability or the willingness to earn money might suffer hardship. However, in all cases this is side effect, rather than the goal, of the people with wealth, and so they can hardly be accused of either malice or cruelty.