EF_Kevin
Jun 2, 2009
Writing Feedback / "People of MTV generation have no patience. They want instant satisfaction." [84]
Hey, sorry I disappeared for a while!
Yes, so far I am following you. It is true that I get out of the way when a car is coming. So far I have only read your first paragraph, and the obvious implication is that, when the body dies, we will probably experience a cessation of our experience. Just like getting hit by a car, the answer is obvious. We know what happens when we get hit by a car, and we know what happens when there is no longer a body to take in sensory information. That's a discouraging thought!
However, I was using the word "fundamental" for an important reason. The fact I spontaneously started existing opens up a world of possibilities.
I see that you also made the point that I more often experience myself as a separate individual because I spend more time out of meditation than in it. To be clear, though, I have never experienced myself as anything but a separate individual. I only hear rumors in lore from Daoism, Buddhism, and Hinduism that says a tremendous change is possible.
It's the source of that old joke about the zen student that went to the hot dog stand and said, "Make me one with everything."
So, I concede your point that things in life are real during life, and I also admit that I do only experience myself as a separate being. I have only heard rumors about enlightenment.
Now I read Yang Jwing Ming's books, and he is a mechanical engineer who also studies ancient Chinese documents about "enlightenment." I am trying to learn exactly what a semi-conductor is, because Dr. Yang has theorized that the "re-opening of the third eye" discussed in enlightenment traditions involves a process by which the body becomes a semi-conductor. When something becomes a semi-conductor, it stays a semi-conductor.
Well, you made a strong argument here for the idea that experience stops when the body dies. I understand why you used the examples you used, I get it. I also see that you acknowledge the possibility that "our perceptions are all misguided", though you say it's very unlikely. You also say there needs to be a "deceiver," but I don't think that is really necessary. Just like the fish does not know what water is, we have no objective way to know what reality is.
I don't want to keep arguing that my experience continues (i.e. like, with my memories all intact) after the body dies. I have given you the wrong impression about what I believe. I see that, if I am indeed eternal, I was born with amnesia. Therefore, in the interest of answering the Big Question, I am very interested in this rumor about "enlightenment."
Rajiv mentions Maya, the divine play, the Hindu idea that reality is like the holodeck on star trek. That notion is central to the idea I've been trying to convey. That is one of the ideas that comes from the insights of meditation practitioners who supposedly went through a crazy change in their subjective relationship to reality.
My post is getting too long, so I'll quit for now. But can we talk about the possibility of having this experience called "enlightenment?" What do you guys think of the idea that someone can suddenly realize the answer to the Big Question? If you suddenly remember your original self, your self that is ongoing and not limited to this person you are being, you would not be able to explain it to anyone! So, enlightenment is indeed a possibility, but it may be overlooked by many of us who have not had it.
Ha ha, next time you are in a book store, read the intro to Suzuki's Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. There is a funny story about Suzuki's answer when he was asked why "enlightenment" was never mentioned in his book.
Hey, sorry I disappeared for a while!
Is reality more fundamental than illusion? For instance, can we trust our sense more often than not?
Yes, so far I am following you. It is true that I get out of the way when a car is coming. So far I have only read your first paragraph, and the obvious implication is that, when the body dies, we will probably experience a cessation of our experience. Just like getting hit by a car, the answer is obvious. We know what happens when we get hit by a car, and we know what happens when there is no longer a body to take in sensory information. That's a discouraging thought!
However, I was using the word "fundamental" for an important reason. The fact I spontaneously started existing opens up a world of possibilities.
I see that you also made the point that I more often experience myself as a separate individual because I spend more time out of meditation than in it. To be clear, though, I have never experienced myself as anything but a separate individual. I only hear rumors in lore from Daoism, Buddhism, and Hinduism that says a tremendous change is possible.
It's the source of that old joke about the zen student that went to the hot dog stand and said, "Make me one with everything."
So, I concede your point that things in life are real during life, and I also admit that I do only experience myself as a separate being. I have only heard rumors about enlightenment.
Now I read Yang Jwing Ming's books, and he is a mechanical engineer who also studies ancient Chinese documents about "enlightenment." I am trying to learn exactly what a semi-conductor is, because Dr. Yang has theorized that the "re-opening of the third eye" discussed in enlightenment traditions involves a process by which the body becomes a semi-conductor. When something becomes a semi-conductor, it stays a semi-conductor.
Well, you made a strong argument here for the idea that experience stops when the body dies. I understand why you used the examples you used, I get it. I also see that you acknowledge the possibility that "our perceptions are all misguided", though you say it's very unlikely. You also say there needs to be a "deceiver," but I don't think that is really necessary. Just like the fish does not know what water is, we have no objective way to know what reality is.
I don't want to keep arguing that my experience continues (i.e. like, with my memories all intact) after the body dies. I have given you the wrong impression about what I believe. I see that, if I am indeed eternal, I was born with amnesia. Therefore, in the interest of answering the Big Question, I am very interested in this rumor about "enlightenment."
Rajiv mentions Maya, the divine play, the Hindu idea that reality is like the holodeck on star trek. That notion is central to the idea I've been trying to convey. That is one of the ideas that comes from the insights of meditation practitioners who supposedly went through a crazy change in their subjective relationship to reality.
My post is getting too long, so I'll quit for now. But can we talk about the possibility of having this experience called "enlightenment?" What do you guys think of the idea that someone can suddenly realize the answer to the Big Question? If you suddenly remember your original self, your self that is ongoing and not limited to this person you are being, you would not be able to explain it to anyone! So, enlightenment is indeed a possibility, but it may be overlooked by many of us who have not had it.
Ha ha, next time you are in a book store, read the intro to Suzuki's Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. There is a funny story about Suzuki's answer when he was asked why "enlightenment" was never mentioned in his book.
