Writing Feedback / Machine Learning versus Learning by Humans [51]

In India and many other Eastern countries, babies are considered as acting from a divine consciousness. Adults often interpret many of their reactions as of greater significance in many situations where maturer individuals would control the emotions they display, or become self conscious. This may have been believed in the West as well at some time, but as it did not sit well with scientific theory, it is only now coming around as being acceptable to talk about. This divine consciousness is the same being debated on the other thread.

The description of the experience I gave is much more than euphoria and a change in the level of consciousness. I am curious, why, do you not address the experience and its many facets I wrote about?

Writing Feedback / Machine Learning versus Learning by Humans [51]

OK, no offense taken since you have explained this as your method earlier.

But, so I understand what we are doing here, the alternatives are, that either you believe I am saying things you've heard already, and these are not of much consequence; or you try to ascertain the truth in my assertions.

And for that, you can follow uptil a point with your own understanding and reason, but then you have to put it to test when I say something happens.

At that point, I am curious, what method you will employ?

Writing Feedback / Machine Learning versus Learning by Humans [51]

By the same token your statement sounds even more suspiciously as someone trying only to make light of what I've said. Where is the comparison to oxygen deprivation that would validate your comment. The comparison to baby_mind is an attempt to mock again. Nothing of worth to take up in what you're starting off with here.

Writing Feedback / Machine Learning versus Learning by Humans [51]

.. And these are the ideas I am trying to convince the professor at Stanford with; to introduce her to the concepts in the philosophy I want her to put alongside the others.

Why don't you tear down the essays, I'll try and build it up where it doesn't give way altogether.

Writing Feedback / Machine Learning versus Learning by Humans [51]

Kevin - I liked what you wrote in your last post there and I am on the same page with you.

No Sean, its not the species of the creatures which deters me.. but the futility of arguing. I would be happy to hear you and others on what I've written here, though.

Writing Feedback / Machine Learning versus Learning by Humans [51]

Thanks for following along Kevin. Helps me a lot to write it down

I feel quite certain that for each of us spirituality never became irrelevant, we only lost our way in how to carry it further.

The term spirituality is overused now and often invites ridicule. But will we be as ready to say that it never had any meaning? To me it is obvious, that for even the most seasoned Indians here, these same things are ever-close to their hearts. Their mockery is for people who discuss it. And their reluctance to start any discussion, is that these things may be talked lightly about. Like avoiding talk about someone who is dear, but perhaps handicapped, and they wish to avoid the pain of implicit laughter to themselves and to him.

I might myself be considered such a person, and in reality there is more than a superficial similarity here. But I have always been interested in exploring the rational we can still attach to these ideas - in these technology driven times of ours.

Let me tell you my own experience in spirituality.

I had been reading 'The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali' for a few years and had discerned the central practice given there. It comprised eight stages of transformation, until the final called 'Kaivalyam' - 'Oneself alone'. The first two stages are about our behaviour and just thinking about them and what they asked for, made one get a hook on many things one may otherwise do almost thoughtlessly. This helped me connect my mind to my actions and, in time, built a foundation of who I was becoming as a person.

The next two stages are difficult to get a real handle on, and will appear even more so now, because in the present, they would probably be considered as injurious. The first, in a manner similar to the previous two, is about regulating our breath, or more about controlling its flow entirely. There are finer steps described to achieve that, but ultimately the aim is arresting the breathing altogether. The implication is that our mind-stuff and its various states are interdependent with breathing, and we can bring our mind in control through this practice.

As I started to make an effort, I distinctly remember feeling that I would succeed this time. As I held my breath for longer and longer intervals, my heart began to race. A fear of something irrevocable was rising in me, like I was letting go of something secure, and casting into an unknown space. My heart was beating with this fear. I had closed my eyes and was sitting in the posture of meditation. My visual perception started tearing up. Lighter forms were becoming an extension of something beyond them, of what had appeared as darkness until then. A bewildering realization came to me, that whether I opened my eyes or closed them, what I was percieving now was not going to change. This was actually the real situation of my normal everyday existence which had been overpowering me. I was now confronting it in its totality, and I was terrified.

Something of that nature was occuring with my hearing as well. It seemed as a voice, sounding as my own, and as though I had always been hearing it within my mind, clear, even toned and very reassuring was reasoning with me, telling me what is going on. I did not have to talk of my problems or difficulties, it was more like we were looking at them in their reality.

One significant aspect of this experience I remember was seeing myself situated somewhere, but the actions of my body seemed external to me. Events were happening, even the smallest ones, in a way which appeared totally predictable. You felt like, it has to be as this next, and everything you experienced was driven by yourself, but without any sense of willing it. Yet everything seemed to happen for the better, and every action as though you had wished for - in a sort of unravelling of yourself.

(~L~)

Writing Feedback / Machine Learning versus Learning by Humans [51]

Understanding is a 'seeing' and I don't even wish this to be taken as an original statement. When we 'see', we may put our mind more into the observation and extract more. At the same time and at another level a picture is formed and we add to its details till we say - aha, now I understand. The visual picture has in contrast many objects and we can see them mostly at once, the entire forms we wish to identify. The picture forming in our mind seems in this sense to 'appear' a little slowly.

As I walk into a room that I have never been in before and take in the objects, the setting, the people present. I might find myself involuntarily gazing at something longer. Without any effort that I would recognize myself making, I have started to assimilate the forms, relating them to something already in my mind, mostly an expectation of what I thought I would see here, but as likely, it is a feeling of anticipation of what I would find and who would actually be in the room...

If this was a visit to someone's home for the first time, as this person spots and acknowledges me, I find my mind moving into a high gear of observation. I notice the attitude of other individuals around, but unconciously I notice too the quality and the types of things in the room. All of it is making an impression. In some almost unconscious way this adjusts my own attitude as I address not the person alone I came to meet, but this entire context.

There are a few more expected moments as I become situated, by gestures the person makes towards a place to sit, offers me something to snack or sip upon. Maybe next, introduces me gently to the conversation happening there, then shifts his attention to the persons he was engaged in that conversation with. The others in that group are taking you in, more so those who were listening at the time you joined in. The person who was leading the conversation has a look of controlled patience waiting for the ripple created by your arrival to subside that he may continue to make his point.

The host is the fulcrum and even as you may start to listen in to the people talking in your group, you notice the expression on his face. Try to read something there of what he has to say of the person talking, or is it some pleasure on seeing you, that you have come, which would be if he were a close friend or relative. Is there some concern as he checks your expression, if you are entirely comfortable, for unlike himself, the others are likely to be strangers to you.

Such is human nature, or more so because this occasion is in all likelihood a social one, the greater interest is in the new, the off from the expected kind, and you feel the interest shifting to making out just who you are. For until then only the host knew you, and you are of some importance to him to have been brought here in similar company, and everyone stands back to hear your introduction and what you may bring to this gathering.

You feel some sympathy for your friendly host and are aware this is not easy for him. He may now say, " This is Rajiv, I am not sure what he is doing exactly. So I'll let him tell you that !"

So, you introduce yourself "I've been writing for a while now, nothing to publish, more to make sense of the difficulty I personally feel in trying to connect the culture here with that in India."

"And what kind of sense is that ?" someone asks.

"What bothers me is that I have to dumb myself down. That is, I feel pressed to give way in most situations to react as someone making less sense of it would do. "

He responds " So you are saying that even though you would ideally say something else, you feel compelled somehow to phrase yourself differently. And this isn't just because you do not speak the language well enough? "

You want to say "No. Since even an illiterate person, grown up here in US is able to navigate himself in commonplace conversation in shops, while walking along the streets, and other such times. Something else inhibits this from happening with me. But in India, there is no sense of this stifling up at all".

Writing Feedback / Archimedes; "Eureka!" essay [10]


Use this instead of the above, it appears as more accurate -

Columbia Encyclopedia entry:
Archimedes' principle, principle that states that a body immersed in a fluid is buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the displaced fluid. The principle applies to both floating and submerged bodies and to all fluids, i.e., liquids and gases.

Writing Feedback / Machine Learning versus Learning by Humans [51]

In which case I thank you very much for reading my essay and your comments on them. It's more than what anyone else has done !

Writing Feedback / Machine Learning versus Learning by Humans [51]

It would be a little misleading for me to take your ..getting what I am saying, as making sense to everyone. For instance, why is a school's philosophy department unwilling to study this then? And, where is their objection precisely?

Is it in accepting any particular premise such as, characteristics are longer lasting than our physical selves? Or is it the definition of objectivity, as an innate property in materials? Or this, that a conscience whose only characteristic is awareness, connects objectivity outside to ourselves?

Or finally, it is the way we look at things at present that our consciousness, seeing itself responsible for actions which though happening solely as an interaction of objective laws and our own character traits, creates an illusionary effect in our minds, as being due to ourselves?

Is this not contrary to what we want to believe? Does this convey somehow to people to not apply themselves?

Undergraduate / There were times when I didn't craved for life. A shiny new car. (obstacle or bump essay) [4]

Jennifer,

If you're lucky you'll meet the right sort of teacher who will recognize the poetry in your choice of words. Then, he or she will gently help you stretch your own sense, which is tuned naturally to your native tongue, to fullfill the needs of english grammar. It will be exhilarating for you, or dull and punishing, depending on your teacher.

For you, I hope it is the former.

Undergraduate / US Prep school admission essay -- my future dream of being a diplomat [7]

I imagine myself attending the commencement at WA, being proud of having acquired the important skills for my future dream of be[coming]ing a diplomat.

WA enjoys a unique diversity, which is not to be found anywhere else. Each student from his own homeland brings in a new taste of culture and mutual understanding. This advantage gives me the [a] chance to learn [at] first-hand how people from every walk of life think and live. Having a brief but exact knowledge about cultures and traditions [will] enable me, [as] a future global citizen and a diplomat, to make a quick adjustments while working overseas.

WA also offers me an opportunity to try many things that I wo'nt [would not] be able to do in Vietnam. I can learn a totally new foreign language to explore a new culture. I can also join a debat[ing] club to strengthen my speaking and critical thinking [skills]abilities .

At the moment, I am [in] holding the position of the School Student Discipline Committee, which gives me a sense of confidence and leadership. t[T]he experienced and responsible teaching staff at Wasatch Academy can provide me with the knowledge I need in both life and future career[and] i[I] would love to learn from the best teachers in the best classes that WA has to offer.

t[T]here's a strong belief in me that all of my hidden talents or abilities can be explored and developed during the years at WA. Deep in my heart, I understand that after three years there, I would leave this place with more than what I walked in with . I believe WA is the perfect environment where my dreams will take flight, and many other treasures will be found.

Writing Feedback / Machine Learning versus Learning by Humans [51]

This I feel as what maybe - as opposed to what definitely is not!

Characteristics we see in individuals, do not vanish on their dying. Their own memory of their own life experience does. And learning and knowledge is of the nature of these characteristics, a modification of them.

As though these characteristics form a knot, or a clump, a seed - which germinates through birth. The character traits drive the individual, who is growing out in the body.

In human interactions it is these characteristics which rub together, as much as we allow, and sometimes more than we wish to; always leaving some impact on each other.

Then there is the objectivity of things. We interact physically with objects through a connection with an objective knowledge of their function. Say, when we want to push something big, we can use a machine whose motions and actions we are connected with, through a concrete aspect in our own mind which recieves and reacts and converts our thougths to our actions.

We may come upon some unfamiliar device and our mind may try to put together some functions in an attempt to create something coherent as a whole. Our action may be obstructed by lack of a key or some weight, or a closed door. We search for functions in our mind by which to make the whole action happen. When it doesn't, it is because we were not able to connect to some specific part of it, which could even have been knowing, who to call to find where a key is. This correct thought of the function is its objective reality. And everything physical has these, and is actually really just these, in some form or external design.

That things come together in just some particular way and no other, giving it a sense of being unique, an identity, is what we recognize as its law, its nature. And similarly, living things grow by a process which we can talk as simpler processes, down to the point we can almost say, aha - so it has to be this way. Seems so for every mechanical process too, when we deconstruct a function; we come down to its materials and it is their behaviour which seems to determine what we tried to create, a metal door, a hinge, a gear. And it is by these properties of different substances by which we recognize them, gasoline, water, wood, fabric. We work in our minds with these properties as we try to make something, which too reflects a property, correctly if we succeed, differently if if lacked some knowledge.

The unique and objective nature of a thing is independent of our capacity to come to know of it. But when we do, it is invincibly connected with us in the deepest sense. That is, its objective nature is one with ours. Almost like an extension.

Conscience, as an attributeless, substanceless, energyless entity, but as awareness, is the connection between thoughts, in our minds and the objectivity outside. Already we have two seperate layers in our minds. Memory is an almost physical one, with a connection to our bodies like a computer's memory functions; and attributes or characteristics are traits we recognize as our personalities, which essentially are who we are, growing out as our physical features as well.

We look out at the world and at ourselves limited by the development in our nature, and therefore through it. Conscience is our consciousness, with a strangely more bloated sense of itself, for each; maybe because in the process of living and thinking it often thinks of the making of things happen. Though quite outside itself and actually in the bed of a tranquil conscience, by its laws; often thinking itself as doing more than it was really involved in.

So in this bed of conscience, characteristics come afloat on losing the physical coherence of a body, existing as a potential or many potentials, and no single identity. The mould is a life-form, for it is a potential fufilled through the action of that kind. Like some seed strewn in a field, it germinates in living form, to live primarily by its innate principles. The characteristics are afloat in the bed of conscience and follows its laws. The body slowly acquires, in its immediate situation, though a collection of traits, a name for itself to whom these traits belong. There is no identity other than this, that they all act through the body, as fragments of properties; like a glass of water, a trolley, or a pear.

Speeches / talk about someone in your family who you admire [8]

Hi Débora - I am just putting the finished piece after Rosamond's corrections above:

We all have someone in our family who we most admire. From my perspective these people are essential for us as we have somebody to look up to. In my case, the person I esteem the most is certainly my grandfather, whose life story inspires me and even helps me to pursue a better life.

He was born in Pouso Alegre, a small village in Minas Gerais, son of an idealist journalist who used to fight alongside the small farmers, against powerful landowners. He used to live happily with his mother and brothers, until the day his dad was murdered. He was just six years old when he started working as a bootblack to help his mother. Life was hard but he never gave up. After a lot of work and dedication he realized his dream and graduated in law in one of the best colleges in the country.

Everyone has dreams but there are few people in the world strong enough to fight for them. Surely, my grandfather is one of this those. Courage, determination and constantly striving are the traces of his strong personality that I most prize. He is smart and extremely confident and it is always a pleasure to hear his life experiences.

I aspire to follow in his footsteps so that I can be a better person and guarantee a successful future for myself.

Now, may I leave a message for her -

Rosamond: You were not in the wrong, so do not think that is what everyone on this forum believes. Only that particular thread has been removed. I am happier to read your writings than of the 10,000 others!

Writing Feedback / Here's the Problem - an essay [3]

It is my children and their friends who have made me realize how different the coming world is going to be. Where the children now growing up in lavish surroundings will seek out the impoverished and those who were deprived, and will try to understand and uplift them. Why, you may ask? Because no one really wishes to be an inheritor. Neither does he or she want to carry the burden of deeds of the past upon their conscience. But in the end really, because everyone wants to know what is life all about? The mystery and wonder, the infinite. Do not think even for an instance that any one nation has answers more than any other to these eternal questions.

Be patient, be peaceful, I know you are loving, and above all give of yourself to the world through your wonderful writing.

Undergraduate / Transfering from UTD to UT Austin - Statement of Purpose [11]

Great start. I would use some other words here:
Already not accustomed to driving while talking on the phone, she conversed [struggled to converse] with my doctor. The doctor's coldhearted words were appeared cold-hearted.

These commas seem necessary to connect well with the earlier sentence:
It took everything I had[,] to keep my mind on my goals[,] while fighting lack of energy, irregular hormones, and more weight gain than I want to put an exact number on.

I've always let everything go[,] just thinking as a young woman that had been through cancer and back[,] this was just normal, because the doctors told me that all my tests looked normal.

I take pride in my aggressiveness[,] to describe to my doctor how I feel [and] in a way that they can help me manage everything[,] I am feeling no matter what the test results are.

My ordeal has also lit the fire underneath me to study English literature[,] and learn more about what exactly makes life worth living.

... mind you though, this is not as obvious as you seem to assume. But as good a place to start as any other, so why not!

Now that I am more appreciative of the life I love[,] with the people I care for, I now have a more significant desire to travel the nation[,] speaking of my experiences, and hopefully[,] giving comfort to those patients who can't find it elsewhere.

... I was hoping internationally

Writing Feedback / "Leave it to Allah!" Does this article sound good in English? [48]

Here's another point of view:

Your english is very good. I think you are really saying in the right words whatever idea you are wishing to convey. Two places I found where the flow is interrupted:

' Learning can give the mind the power to view and understand things...' this did not connect with the earlier paragraphs.

'I mean to say that calling for love is a must...' did you mean " asking for love" ?

On the whole you convey the beauty and sense of the original passage very faithfully.

Writing Feedback / We can know something about a person by the way he dresses. [18]

Well, I must say this that thanks to the -- two response before you post a thread rule -- the thread's owner is overwhelmed with ' creative' and 'constructive' ideas that just happened to be put in ! And if s/he lacks a little confidence in their own writing, and this will be the case in this forum, you have a result like the above ! Are we going in the right direction here? Seems the usual case of quality versus quantity to me.

Undergraduate / Transfering from UTD to UT Austin - Statement of Purpose [11]

Welcome Anni; it is good to have you here. We have some very excellent moderators and with their inputs and the very many other contributors, you'll have you Statement of Purpose in truely the best form it can be.

You'll notice an international cast here, thanks to the internet nature of this forum. So, many of those who read your posts are sitting in various parts of the world. I wish to make you a suggestion - think beyond the national boundaries. You will be as welcome anywhere on the globe, as in your own country.

Another view-point, maybe it'll whet your appetite for going outside. You've met your enemy and you've vanquished it. Now don't let it prey on your mind, just let it go. Set yourself some challenge like any other individual, then, go for that.

Writing Feedback / Education Playground -- letters after your name [3]

--- You've got that right too and you've made some meaningful observations.
Question: What are you looking for? Just corrections to your grammar? Why did you give the title "educational playground:" to this post?

Seems to me you're 'pissed-off' with the BAs, BS, Phds...and think that they get respect because they have their degrees and not because they can actually do their jobs better. At least not this one, that you're yourself doing. You do it with your heart, and that has more meaning.

That said.. and that maybe correct, for what purpose have you written this? In some strange way I understand what you wish to say, I think, but to correct your language might give you the wrong impression. Your grammar isn't good but your communication is quite strong!

Grammar, Usage / A DIFFERENT way to say "going towards" [18]

"Since the industrial revolution the in the late 18th century, mankind has been [going towards] a trend where laziness has dominated..."

..drifting towards..

Essays / The best way of adding depth to an essay [9]

.. a little cold in the beginning, but then its fun...really...and there is the deep side, depends how far you wish to go... On adding depth, think deep, everybody can help finding the best words to say it...

.. whatcha got on your mind ??

Poetry / Destined - a poem [10]

Thank you Sean. That was much more than I had expected to hear.

You're right, I have no formal learning in writing poetry and any rhythm is almost incidental. Almost an effort to squeeze more of what I was only feeling within. I felt satisfied though, in the way it worked.

You all are very interesting people, and I am truely happy to know you ! I have learnt much on this site and am quite indebted for that.

Rajiv

Poetry / Destined - a poem [10]

Thanks Kevin!

Writing Feedback / "Leave it to Allah!" Does this article sound good in English? [48]

Gibran's is definitely one of my most liked writers and influenced me in ways I may not be aware of, since I read his Prophet in my earliest days.

To read Gibran was to learn how to say things felt at those depths; but to express one's own thoughts now, is the larger reward. I wish you would speak freely of your peoples' suffering and your anger for those who brought it upon them.

It is ironic, that the oppressed have to express even their anguish in the language of the oppressors.

Essays / Discovery of the "New World" [15]

"To what extent did [was] the discovery of the New World a positive or negative development?" is the question you are seeking to address in your paper, and your focus is " ..the negative impacts of the discovery [,] such as fatal diseases brought by the Europeans..".

There are people who would argue that killing of the natives was almost a negligible price for the development it brought to the land. The natives wouldn't of course see it that way.

Then, are you implying that north americans do not have any culture of their own, even if its roots were sprung in Europe. What of the cowboys and present day baseball? And hotdogs?

Writing Feedback / "Leave it to Allah!" Does this article sound good in English? [48]

Thank you Rosamond..I've read and listened to "Mawtini".

Hard to capture the poets poetic-ness from a poem of this nature. Perhaps, something of a romantic or spiritual kind ?

Writing Feedback / "Leave it to Allah!" Does this article sound good in English? [48]

The only images most of us have seen are those of recent times, of Baghdad and other Arabic places. You bring a sense of the Arabic culture and your own love for it too can be felt in your writing. What are our images ? ... maimed children, shuffling pedestrians, scenes of explosions, grim looking faces of troops in khaki armour and dark glasses... and you are trying to show us some glimpse into the literary world of your people.

Can you post something of "Abraham Toucan" please.. something you liked very much yourself.

Writing Feedback / It's with God's miracle that human miracles are innovate; Human Mind vs. the Computer [8]

Here's an idea I've been trying for a while to find the right words to put in.

Underlying whatever we can only see, is an essence which does not only contain the visible, but -- is -- the universe. It impinges on 'us' and we become aware of ourself. It is one characteristic of 'ourself' that we form a sense of our identity.

The computers coming along is quite a natural evolution in the process -- but the computer will not be creative without our intelligence channeling into it. And I've said above what 'our intelligence' is.

Poetry / Destined - a poem [10]

Hello Kevin/Sean/Rosamond and others...

Same as with the earlier piece " some thoughts - an essay ".
Appreciated your comments.

Would love to hear what you have to say to this one.

Thank you.

Writing Feedback / Some of my thoughts - an essay [8]

Some time ago I put this up but the moderator did not respond.. not to the questions I asked anyway. I think there are still persons on this forum who see value in just an intelligent exchange, and sometimes, just the exercise to express.

I'll be happy to hear from anyone...

A suggestion to the moderators.. this requirement of reviewing a number of items of others before being able to post oneself, is too harsh. I think it weakens the quality of writing.

Book Reports / This is a story about someone I knew [15]

Thank you Kevin, Summersnow and Arun. I am really happy you read and liked my story !
Rajiv

Book Reports / This is a story about someone I knew [15]

I say she fails to grasp the meaning as I meant because she still says , we would be failing to look inside ourselves for deeper understanding?.

But there isn't an ourselves ... anymore. Only meaning.

Book Reports / This is a story about someone I knew [15]

Reading the above, it is apparent that Sarah does not connect to the idea I intend to convey.

She asks me, ' When you use the word "presence" (and forgive me, because I think we've been over this before, but some things require a deeper understanding), how do you define that word, in that context?'

We are quite lost after that. 'But if we take our identity as just that and nothing more, that is, it does not actually initiate any action? Is it just the same as choosing not to act?' I mean 'identity 'as something 'superficial' but Sarah takes it to mean the opposite.

She responds 'So, are you saying that, by taking our identity as "just that and nothing more" we would be failing to look inside ourselves for deeper understanding?

Is that its inherent meaning perhaps, and that is why ? - like an oxymoron?

Book Reports / This is a story about someone I knew [15]

Hello Gloria,

This is all I wished to put in this story. I will be very happy to hear your comments.

Thanks
Rajiv

Book Reports / This is a story about someone I knew [15]

Discussion on essay ..' A presence in oneself '.

R: I think in the above, the philosophizing really begins with, ' what really exists is me, this presence'.
I can very, very vaguely imagine, my existence, but without this presence. Or put another way, I can sometimes see myself, as though clinging to this sphere of reality within which everything is happening. Because I see nothing else but this, and it does not turn upon me, ie. separate itself from me, I think I have started to think everything I see within as my very own world.

S: I'm afraid the only part of that which I understood is "I think I have started to think everything I see within as my very own world." Sorry to be obtuse...I think it must be difficult to be specific when writing about things which are more, by their very nature, ephemeral, than concrete. :-)

R: Let me make a small change in something I've said above:
And say instead: it happens for this presence, and can happen really in no other way.
Saying it as earlier makes me the person doing it, feeling it... and as this, it shifts the emphasis to, it is happening for reasons I am not even aware of, I'm only carried along.

As of now I think I feel, all the way down to the experience of it, as pleasant, unpleasant, soft, hard - but this is so actually, with my sense of being involved. My hand cuts and bleeds, after the initial intense moments, I can even see it all distantly. If I feel attached by the physical pain, that too can be schooled to appear removed; as people who follow this practice do.

I am more than just grateful to you for staying in this discussion. I am also grateful to have found someone who is representing the other point of view. Usually, it only feels like a blank wall when some things I take for granted, aren't so at all, and I'm left wondering why.

Does it seem incredible that millions live by these ideas? I will be really happy to think that, for this discussion, if you were to visit India sometime, people doing such practices as we have talked about will not bring in you any feelings of revolt.

S: I think it is very good for someone to become acquainted with the ideas and practices of very different cultures; good, not only for that person's individual growth, but also because it contributes to that person's own culture. To increase understanding between nations, religions, philosophical viewpoints and schools of thought, is to add to the knowledge of the world and diminish the likelihood of serious world conflict. That may sound like a grand goal, but I believe it to be true: the more understanding we have for things which are, to us, "foreign," the more willing we are to live and let live, and even derive benefit from this sharing of knowledge.

You write about things which are entirely unknown, I suspect, to the majority of Americans; that is part of why I have trouble understanding what you mean, sometimes. But, it is good for me to try to understand, just as it is good for you, as a writer and philospher, to have to push yourself to be understood. And, I hope, to anyone else reading this discussion, will come a new understanding as well--whether about the content of the philosophical discussion, or just about how better to express ideas in writing, so that the translation from thought to written word becomes clearer. :-)

R: I couldn't agree more with you, and share your hope in finding reconciling world-views among peoples through understanding each others cultures.
Yes, many ideas I have tried to express, may be the first time that people outside India have come across them. Or what is more likely, they may not have seen them connected to a single framework, and may appear pretty strange otherwise.

This concept of presence versus doing-it-ourselves is definitiely one of such.

S: When you use the word "presence" (and forgive me, because I think we've been over this before, but some things require a deeper understanding), how do you define that word, in that context?

And yes, it is not lost on me that the very fact that I must ask the question proves that it is "one of such." ;-))

R: Definitely, to try and conjure up this 'concept' of presence is not likely to succeed. Instead we begin with what we feel is real for us. Maybe things which surround us, or our particular situation, as a mix of troubles and happenings.

If we are more comfortable with a sense of reality in 'things' around us, we cannot ignore that any sense of the real we have, comes to us through our senses. But since we make much more of these same things, inside our heads, (else they would be fragments of data,) we accept the existence of a reality of these same, somewhere beyond our common perception.

It is not so difficult to see ourselves, our identity, there as well; to whom else is all we perceive making sense otherwise? We may try to examine just what is it, what does it really do? But if we ask who is doing the examining, we have to accept that, that too is only the same.

Seems we really can't get away from ourselves.
But if we take our identity as just that and nothing more, that is, it does not actually initiate any action? Is it just the same as choosing not to act?

S: So, are you saying that, by taking our identity as "just that and nothing more" we would be failing to look inside ourselves for deeper understanding? If I may play devil's advocate for a moment, what potential disaster results from choosing not to act? To act, by doing what, exactly? (I ask this as a method of furthering discussion.) :-)

R: I meant "instead" in place of "but" at the start of the last paragraph, making the sentence mean the opposite of as you read it.So, with that meaning, our identity is only a sense of such, and we have a moment before every action, especially with routine actions, when we can consider, if we are just attaching ourselves to this action or is it anything more.

S: ...and, what a difference that might make, if we were to think, before every action! (or would the world move too slowly in that case? Would anything get done? :-))

R: And, if it is only that, then given everything before, and our karmas, things could not have been different from as they are now.

Many who read or otherwise come upon this philosophy, understand it as saying not to act, thereby, making out its message as being of inaction, translated simplistically as lazy.

It would be, I admit, if the person's intent was truly to be indolent. But, quite subtly, if the person was instead, looking, or more correctly seeking, for the spring in his every action, he would only quite mistakenly appear not wishing to act -- on account of his indolence. Don't you think so?

We have reached the end of the philosophy. This last idea we have struggled with of identity, is called Asmita, and was mentioned in "Eastern thought introduction," the earlier topic. It is truly difficult to overcome, if at all. It is poetically portrayed in one Indian epic Ramayana, often read as an allegory of the human struggles to overcome an earthly bondage.

In it, the reality within ourself is an heir-apparent, banished to spend fourteen years in a forest, more perilous in the times of this story. He is accompanied by his wife, insisting to be on his side. She is the tranquility we seek. A brother, representing hot-headed valor, maybe even rationality, joins them.

While in their little abode, when the king-to-be is away, a demon disguised as a sage deceives the brother away from the cottage, and seizing the princess, carries her to his own kingdom. The demon is none other than Asmita we mentioned. Well, gathering together his many energies, most prominently his life-energy, represented in the story as a monkey-leader dwelling in the forest, the king sets out to win back his queen, and succeeds, but after he has vanquished the demon.

My own demons are not conquered. I cannot truthfully take this discussion forward and speak as though with experience of what may lie past this.

S: One may question whether one's demons can ever all be conquered in this life...but to me, the journey is the thing; the quest for knowledge is the sine qua non of our existence. As long as we continue to ask the questions, we are improving, whether we think we have found the answers or not.

All the best!

R: Thank you Sarah. I've enjoyed these discussions with you very much!

S: So have I! Take care!

Book Reports / This is a story about someone I knew [15]

Discussion on the essay ' How we may cause natural events to occur '.

S: I find this essay easier to follow; whatever you're doing, it's working. ;-)). However, I do have a question with this underlying assumption: "thoughts relating to an event only seem to be ours, in reality they belong to the event." I suppose my reaction to this is, "how do you know? How can you say that my thoughts are not mine; what is your evidence to this effect?" (there's a legal term creeping in ;-)).

I suppose one could put it this way: how did you get from point A to point B?

R: The answer to your question would be along the lines of our earlier discussion in the 'observations' essay. Whatever we percieve as thoughts, their objective part, that is also their real part, is of the nature of the 'higher constituents' of nature's elements. We accompany the thought only with our ego-sense, which too exists at that same level.

The experience of seeing our thoughts as such is the revealing of the reality.

S: It seems it is not possible to discuss things of this nature without making some underlying assumptions--for example, defining the "higher constituents of nature's elements." One must be willing to accept that things are a certain way, and not another, in order to even begin the learning process; would you agree? And by "things" I am referring to things which cannot be seen or proven by scientific inquiry. So...does that not make them faith-based?

R: I have the same questions with this philosophy and think the way forward as following through to where it is that it takes us further, that is, to abilities beyond the limitations we normally consider ourselves as having. As example, we cannot now say with absolute certainty what's on another person's mind, or to exactly know which events are going to happen with us next and will significantly impact the course our lives will take.

The text itself advises to not consider these as an objective of the study or practice, because of all the involvement and turbulence it would create in the life of the person having them - like the present day 'celebrity-status' . On the other hand, I find no other method to prove that the parts, or 'assumptions' as you call them, leading to the results are in fact correct, unless one can experience these extraordinary results.

S: ...and that's an interesting point you make: "unless one can experience these extraordinary results." Have we not all experienced something that could not be explained by science alone? I know I have. Does it mean I have "psychic abilities"? No, not at all. I suppose that is one explanation; another would be that I was using my ordinary five senses, or some of them, and discerned something with them that I did not realize. For example, a favorite pet of mine ran away; the next day, I "heard" a voice (in my head--that is, my own thoughts) say "Go open the front door and let [the pet] in." And there she was, on the front porch, happily waiting for me. Perhaps she made a sound I did not think I heard; perhaps she was communicating with me in some way science cannot yet measure. The possibilities are endless. But because of events like this, I would never say, "If I can't see it, I don't believe in it." :-))

R: The position you take is, and please do correct me if otherwise, that 'things' may exist and we can believe that it is so, but, evidence is required, ie. hard facts alone allow 'things' into the domain of science.

I think I also need to say something about where I am coming from, in this - I should really be saying, where I wish to go to, with this. Well, simply put my case is that the philosophy I have been advocating for in our discussion deserves to be studied, that is, there is merit enough in what we can say about it as of now, and that nothing in our present knowledge allows us to dismiss it. Dismiss it as something unlikely to add to the our understanding of life, and how to better deal with it.

As a concrete objective I would wish something included in the course of 'Theory of Knowledge' which high school students study. Naturally I am asking for a chapter in the text-book which stands on its own, and is not considered only an extension of the chapter on religion.

What would be your opinion?

S: As with most things, it depends how you define your terms! Science can be defined as a systematic study of the physical world as understood through observation and experimentation. Where, then, does that leave, for example, psychology, which involves more than mere chemical or electrical impulses of the brain? We may then want to expand our definition to include the theoretical explanation of phenomena -- a much broader view. I have no problem with including things which are not yet "hard facts" under the penumbra of "science." My only problem is with assuming something to be a "fact" which cannot be proven to be true. Therefore, I would certainly agree that these subjects which are of interest to you deserve study in a "Theory of Knowledge" sort of course. My caveat would be that they cannot be presented as "facts" per se; that is, to say something to the effect of "there are four levels of existence" as if it could be proven in a laboratory, rather than saying "this [name of philosophy, school of thought, or whatever] holds that there are four levels of existence..." This is why there is such heated debate in the U.S. about teaching Darwinian evolution vs. teaching "creationism" or "intelligent design." To the person for whom the Bible contains literal "fact" as they see it, their own views are as meritorious of inclusion in a science class as those which teach Darwinism. But, if we confine our definition of a "fact" to something which can be scientifically proven, without relying on faith, that argument must fail. So, as with so many things, it comes down to the definition.

R: But my point is that there is enough merit in this philosophical system to take its statement -- of the four levels of existence, as a hypothesis worthy of further investigation. How can one arrange for such concerted study, is a question?

In this case, we must keep in mind though that the person doing this investigation will be experimenting on his or her own faculty of observation. This would not be a result that any person can be called in to verify in an instance. Any person who is subsequently involved to verify 'facts' claimed by the experimenter, can only make such observations after he too has been through the process of the experiment. The instruments and objects in this experiment are the experimenter's own senses and his mental faculties. He is able to observe his deeper lying faculties only by a process of stilling his normally agitated behavior of the mind. After that, the 'fact' of the inner faculty is viewable quite objectively.

Still stands to question though that, as the experimenter peers into his own stilled mind will he have an enlarged view of the external world? That would be the third level experience. Deeper still, will he find himself at par with the machinations of the entire universe, at the causal level, the fourth one?

I think it's very intriguing to put this to a proper study and test. Don't you agree?

S: I agree that it is intriguing and that studying it could only prove interesting and useful. Where I depart from your logic is that one can view the inner workings of one's own mind "quite objectively." By their very definition, one's thoughts can never really be said to be "objective." Again, we get into definitions. To look at something "objectively" means "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings; belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject."

Now, having said that, that is a quite different thing from saying that you can show something to be "true." If you "observe" something to be "true," then, for you, it is "true," is it not? I find that a fascinating distinction--that something might be "true" and yet not be a verifiable "fact"!

R: In the normal way, when we close our eyes we think that as the inside, and with them open, is the outside. But the separation is actually between all five senses and the mental faculties; so if we sit with our eyes closed, there is still a connection with the external through the other senses.

But once aware that it is so, we make progress. We gradually bring ourselves to focus on all else, other than the sense inputs. At that time we may realize, it is better to make sure about when and where we are sitting for this effort, and maybe also, how, meaning comfortably. Either way, all results come not only when we are in this practice, but other times as well. Doing other things, we can see we are quite engaged with our activities and yet as though looking upon them. This is not with any effort, but only noticing as happening -- now that we are looking for it, and that is the best practice.

Our mind undergoes the change, of stilling, and it happens over days, at the least, and is perceivable as a change we carry over to even how we attend to our earlier activities.

What are we looking for? -- not a good question.
For we can no longer look, or hear, nor smell, taste or feel; or we can do all of these, but their inputs, their sense has a different meaning for us.

S: OK, I admit--I was following nicely, up until the end. Can you explain more about why it is not a good question?

R: How else would we be objective about what we find there!
If this isn't something we have earlier done, the process of stilling our mind, should we not proceed with as totally an unbiased mind as we can carry, with no notions we can formulate at this time.

S: Ah, yes, I see! If we are not free of preconceptions, it will color our interpretation of what we find--or think we find, as we may, in that case, be thinking we have found something different from what was actually there! Hm...which begs the question, how would we ever know? :-)

R: ... that which we find is actually there?
My attempt to lead our discussion in that direction is the reason for bringing it up in the next essay -- on presence.

S: Lead away!

Book Reports / This is a story about someone I knew [15]

Chapter VI

Work, Science( or study) and Money are the things of importance in Western life. The holy trinity.

Ask a teacher, what she would say of 'faith', and she might say a little ambiguously -- " its good to have, if you wish. If it strengthens you. But to believe that something happened with you, or something changed in what you were doing on account of your faith -- that I will have difficulty accepting". She fears you may think were you to have more faith, you would have achieved more. And she doesn't wish to encourage that. In her mind, faith is like a force with some part - intelligence.

She holds back herself from admitting that she brings anything to her work which may be recognized as faith.

Those of us who worship know there is little else one can do, but recall to mind some matters which may be troubling us. As if to share with someone not visible, but nevertheless present to us then.

We were discussing some essays again, I called them 'Eastern thought - an introduction in three parts.'

S: This is a way of thinking which is probably completely new to the majority of Americans. I found this of particular interest: "The next, contentment, is opposed to values in America, but may be acceptable in Europe." (I added a comma after "contentment.") I had not thought of it in those terms before, but it's true: American culture is geared more towards never being satisfied with what you have so that you'll keep striving for more. This leads to a general feeling of dissatisfaction with oneself and one's life, without really understanding why.

I'll look forward to reading more!

R: I wrote these pieces last year to help my daughter appreciate this side of her background, when she started studying 'Theory of Knowledge' at school. I suggested she could make a presentation of this material to her class, but her teacher found it more religious than philosophical. I wonder if you feel so too.

S: While I see it as a mix of religion and philosophy, I can understand her teacher's viewpoint. Passages such as these: "Karma is fascinating as it seems to go beyond our normal realm to our earlier lives" which require a belief in reincarnation cannot be seen as only philosophical. There is much here that must be accepted on faith, in order to derive its benefit. Nonetheless, it is an interesting view into a totally different way of looking at life, from that of non-Indian cultures.

R: If I may ask then -- what do you think about karma?
As an example - during his younger years a man living in some neighborhood, spends much time building a farm. He has to leave later without finishing to take up something elsewhere. On his return to the old town after many years he starts work on his farm again, almost as he left it. The people he bought supplies from, though different now have no problems working again with him. The produce of his farm too he sees he can find buyers for, amongst the same group that would have bought from him earlier ... so, everything takes on from where he left it.

But now, in a manner of speaking, we move closer to what he did during his earlier days. With every project, constructing a fence, or clearing the land to build a barn upon, when negotiating with the supplier of his material, did he look for ways to take more than store-keeper would have given him happily? Did he perhaps wait for the time when the store-keeper would be away from his shop, and he would be able to take advantage of the wife or his son, who were not so business savvy? Or for clearing the land for his barn, did he perhaps not care that what he threw was messing a stream flowing by his land.

If no one is the wiser about his actions, we may remark, simply, he's earned bad karma. But, what is the implication of this remark!

S: I think the idea of karma (the second type you speak of), whether it is called by that name or not, is gaining in universal recognition. It can be seen in a phrase which is now popular here in America: "What goes around, come around." While karma may not always be as "instant" as the sort John Lennon wrote about, it does seem apparent that actions have consequences, and bad actions will, eventually, have bad consequences. The idea is certainly ancient: from this, that; you reap what you sow, etc. Those are variations of the same theme. Is it because of some cosmic moral law, directed by some unseen spiritual force? Or perhaps merely the logical progression of physics? Therein lies the basis for philosophical--and religious--debate.

R: The point of the story is that, it's the man's intentions which form our picture about him. Its one thing that the people in the town have this impression about him and perhaps, will not be helpful to him. But its quite another thing to say that his circumstances will be so arranged, that its not because of what the people don't do for him that his life is difficult, but his circumstances themselves, as though showing a mind of their own, wish to taunt him for just the excesses of behavior he showed during his previous years spent there.

If the second explanation, the one about nature having its own mind, seems only an enchanting story - so would it be, if two men were standing together watching a cannon firing. If one of these men, knew Newton's laws and predicted where the ball would land, would not the other man be equally struck with wonder? Even without bothering to bring up the equations in our mind, or the factors that need be known to arrive at the result, the mass of the ball, the initial velocity.., we put our faith for explaining all of nature's phenomenon so much in physics, that when we do not have a ready answer we still feel safer believing in physics than any other way of understanding.

S: I think we are saying the same thing about karma, in actuality. I agree that there seem to be forces beyond simple interactions with others at work. There is a theory that is gaining popularity these days which says that we attract the kind of energy we put out; if we do negative things, we attract negative energy, and bad things happen to us. The author of a recent book calls it "The Secret." It is not new, though. This idea has many forms of expression; would you agree that karma is one of them?

R: Would you be willing to agree that Newton's laws are the same as the action of Karma?

S: No, I would not agree that Newton's laws are the same as the action of Karma. Newton's laws are demonstrable, repeatable, with predictable results, in a laboratory setting. They demonstrate what we call "facts." i.e., something which can be replicated and proven through scientific method. Karma is much less predictable, wouldn't you agree? Now, it may well be as certain; but can you replicate it in a laboratory? I don't think so. That is why karma belongs in the realm of philosophy or religion, rather than science--in my opinion. I am keenly aware that reasonable minds may differ. :-)

R: Karmas are the reaction of an insentient nature working within its own laws. These laws, we have called the causal realm, are the fourth level of existence. They, i.e. karmas, of course include our ego-sense, and therefore us from the third.

Newton's laws of motion are an insight into nature's laws as they apply to inert bodies, mass and their motion.
Thank you Sarah, I have learnt much in these discussions with you. But there is much, much further I have to go, I only hope I am never lost and without a direction to take.

S: I have a feeling that won't be a problem for you; you seem very focused to me.

Book Reports / This is a story about someone I knew [15]

Chapter V

The essay I gave Sarah was called ' an altogether different way of understanding how we make observations'.

The idea is similar as in the above chapters - that the world in reality acts upon our mind and our perceptions of its events follow.

Reading it, Sarah had to decide whether to take what I was saying seriously, or humor me. And I wished to know what someone with no exposure to eastern ideas, really thought of them. Americans are famously pragmatic.

She broached the seemingly upside-down content, at first, as though I meant it metaphorically. I insisted otherwise.

S: The question that comes to me is, if it is the person who is perceiving the event who is "the real cause for something happening" what of things which happen, unobserved? It's the age-old question of "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" If the answer is that if no one is there to observe it, it didn't happen, that I could not agree with. But certainly, I can see that our observation changes the way we perceive. Am I missing the point entirely?

R: I am missing the contradiction you imply- Ofcourse, things happen unobserved, they are progressing to events, which may or may not concern us. Yes, the tree makes a sound, and it can be recorded as proof.

S :I agree with you; I was just trying to understand when you referred to the "experiencing person" as "the real cause for something happening." To me, that implies that, without the person who is experiencing it, it does not happen. However, I see that there is more than one way to interpret the phrase.

R: I do imply it as you say it - without the person who is experiencing it, it does not happen. I am saying, I don't get how this is contradicted when things happen unobserved or the question, did the falling tree make a sound when no one was around. I do in a sense get it, but if you say it, I may better be able to state the position of my own statement on it.

If, what I am saying is true, it is quite a staggering statement, is it not - that the experiencing person is the real cause of events. Ofcourse you realize it is not my original hypothesis. I am sorry I am not expressing the importance I feel this subject has for me, and for some others too, well enough.

S: No need to apologize! I think we all grapple with these ideas and must find our way through the sometimes clouded haze of understanding to reach a clear expression of thought.

To me, it is a contradiction to say that the event does not happen without the person who experiences it, and yet the tree does make a sound falling in the forest even with no one there to hear it. How did the tree make a sound, then, or even fall, for that matter, if there was no one there to experience it? Is it that the tree experiences it? I am confused.

I attempted to give an explaination, feeling for the meaning I was striving to express. It was as much for myself, and it was a tough going.

S: I'm going to be really honest here and say...I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I feel as if I have lost the thread of what you were talking about in the first place that you keep referring back to. Your last paragraph is particularly puzzling to me.

R: If we understand all existence to be in four layers, where the lowest is the things we interact with and the highest is where we are able to think and reason. Everything happening has a manifestation in each of these layers. When we try to express what constitutes the highest layer, we cannot. But that is where we are reaching to, for our understanding of things. When we understand something, we really see its picture there. So, everything is explained in that highest layer, but its totally formless, and ..

If this is bringing some clarity, I will continue.

S: Yes! Putting things in terms of an image which can be visualized is always helpful. That is why simile and metaphor add so much to writing, I think. So, tell me more about the layers. What are the other two? And where did this concept of layers come from? Is this your own concept, or one which comes from a religious philosophy, or somewhere else?

R: There is a text in Indian philosophy called, Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. Like many things belonging to the past of India, there is some uncertainty about when this was composed, though likely, 500 BC or so. Patanjali too, may be more than one person, and Sutras, means aphorisms, which these originally are, but extensive commentary has been added with each aphorism.

This is the theoretical basis of Yoga, and if you have heard of Yogis having extra-ordinary abilities, then the basis of their practice leading to those abilities was based on the direction in these.

I am usually reluctant to reveal them as the source of where I am arguing from, because I do not wish the person to become so awed that the discussion is not rational anymore. And then, of what significance will be any conclusion if we cannot derive them from experiences in our lives now. Of course one may think these are anachronistic perhaps, but the matter is so deep, that time itself is but a principle to be understood within its framework.

S: Thank you for your explanation. I take your point about not necessarily wanting to reveal the source, but to me, in this case, it makes it all the more interesting. I suppose when discussing timeless truths, anachronisms...well, aren't.

There is a line one must walk, between expressing things as they come from within, and saying them in a way which is likely to be understood by the reader--meaning, perhaps, being more literal than feels natural. Or do I mean "literal"? At any rate, I think attempting to bridge the divide is often a good choice; if we lose something in the expression, at least we did not lose everything, from the viewpoint of the person reading it.

R: In the second layer of existence are the senses, together with what they connect to in the natural world; and we, as we know ourselves are in the third. Not just ourselves, but all we interact with begins at this layer, that is why the close connection with causes, of things happening as they concern us. Space is part of manifestation of nature, co-existing alongside us, upto the third level. In this sense plurality, as seperation between things, happens as they are expressed in the lower levels.

Events have a pre-determined flow, we live with them in our minds, and when we wish to see connections, we can by reaching in. Else our easy, normal awareness is in the third level of existence, not straining too much.

S: Now I am confused again...above, you said, "the lowest [level] is the things we interact with" but now you are saying "we, as we know ourselves are in the third. Not just ourselves, but all we interact with begins at this layer"; so, are the things we interact with at the lowest level, or at the third level?

See what happens when you engage in a philosophical discussion with someone with a legal background? You get cross-examined!

R: I like this fact of your legal background.
I think, why the explanation I gave above is most difficult to accept, is not letting go of the concept of Space as we have in our mind. Yet if you move to an inner sense of yourself, right now, it is as much possible to think of everything you see outside, as manufactured for you by your senses; in the process as you perceive them.

Something else, appears as space. Our particular understanding of space, as we know it, is a result of our mind reacting with that element. This higher level element sitting alongside our mind, is the primary cause of space. We only see it as we do, on the outside. The concept of "alongside" as much depends on the concept of space, but we can still think of the higher constituent of space as having a relationship with our mind.

At least as it happened with me, getting past this particular barrier did most in terms of accepting this theory. Where is the edge of the universe?

S: If, as scientists think, the universe is continuously expanding, and therefore infinite, then the universe has no more of a physical edge than it does a mental one--perhaps even less of one, depending on how expansive one's mind is. Which seems rather appropriate, doesn't it?

R: But which determines the other's limit?
Are you saying that our capacity to think out enough will fix the real size of the universe. That isn't how scientists would approach something - they accept a complexity in something as given and study it to determine more they can about it.

S: No, that's not what I meant--now it is you who is being too literal! :-)) I was saying that some people are incapable of contemplating the infinite; so, for those people, the universe would (only to them) be a smaller place than it actually, physically, is. If we "think of the higher constituent of space as having a relationship with our mind" then our mind sets the limits for our own perception of the the universe, does it not? Which is only a perception and has no effect on what the universe does...as far as we know.

R: Contemplating the infinite should yield us something of worth else it would be
considered an exercise in futility.
I really like the way you are saying what I want to too, but in another way. Yes, I am being more literal and want to take it even further, because I wish to assert that it is literally so. The higher element is not an abstraction of space or infinity, as one may believe, and as I can gather from your statement. Unless you have actually read any text on this subject, nowhere else in world literature has this 'higher constituent of space' been defined. It is as concrete as the real things around us, the point being, it is even more so.

This is really the break one has to make with the past way of thinking about our surrounding reality. And, do you?

S: I think I would benefit from a definition of 'higher constituent of space' before I can answer that. I'm still a little confused.

R: We are talking about the third level of existence.
Other than this, 'higher constituent of space' , existing at the same level are the higher constituents of other nature's elements, of earth, water, air and fire. There is one another, very significant, call it of ego-sense. This last, imparts to each of us our sense of individuality - but of note is, that the existence-play doesn't end even for us with the understanding of this one alone. We are yet connected to the reality in the fourth level, the one which as an un-differentiated 'cause itself' makes everything happen.

Thank you for persisting so long in your efforts to unravel all of this. I really do mean that.

S: You're welcome, and thank you!

What I felt certain when we finished with this conversation was that Sarah had followed up her own thoughts, said nothing out of the ordinary but still had somehow opened her mind to something altogether different.

Book Reports / This is a story about someone I knew [15]

Chapter IV

I think for someone not familiar with this way of thinking, the most disturbing aspect would be to accept that there is an intelligence working upon us and we are not that ourselves. We pride ourselves most in our intelligence.

But did you notice, another 'you' lies as though veiled by this sense of yourself, the 'residual', you normally identify with. The other 'you' - you will see acting intelligently and have no issue with, in its actions and suggestions at all.

Given this theory, I would be interested in working away the 'residual - identity' if for no other reason, but to discover and experience what does lie beyond it.

With that as the focus, can we look for experiences in the past when we have felt ourselves as though surging ahead? Can we recognize anything such as this happening with us then - a diminished sense of ourselves, our sense of individualness. And further can we make a change of this kind more directly if we wished to?

The first of these is the experience of letting go. When something new has come up in our circumstances and we have let ourselves go. Has the outcome been better than we expected, always? One need not examine this for weakness of logic, but only as it applies in one's own experience. At this time we are looking at things at a level which is at par with the foundations of logic itself.

When we do not let go, we're held back for the wrong reasons. Again logically, this does not appear to stand to analysis, but we're talking more of examining the situation bereft of 'what-ifs'.

There are many reasons to not allow a sixteen year old to take a long trip independently. I talk of this example as this is 'the' one before me. I am allowing her to let her experience the reality and to let myself experience it. The reason for my accepting it most is, that it has come about in a natural way, therefore I need to see it as it is 'for' me, and it is 'for' her.

Going further, can I also allow more to happen than I would in a normal situation, just to push the envelope? My intention then would be to retard the growth of my identity further where it extends itself to view everything from its own viewpoint. How do I push it back?

Let others do their will. Give in to other's desires.

I can let someone else have their way in a queue we're both waiting in. At most I may be considered polite, which is a nice feeling, and earn others respect which is also nice; but we're searching for something else, an experiencing for ourselves. Does that happen? And, would you know?

Since its out there and different for each of us, this part is beyond my describing. It may only be experienced, then validated.

Here's the hypothesis we're testing. There is an intelligence out there which is the only one at work. To test it's existence, we are going to look for those circumstances which develop in our lives naturally and let them extend us, gradually. Also, to work more directly upon our residual- identities, we're going to let others have their way over us. When that hurts it's OK, for a time, and to the extent we know we can bear.

We develop a focus in doing this. Then, can we measure a positive growth in ourselves far greater than we have normally, and in any aspect we may wish to see that in? It should be reflected in what we hear from others.

The other measure of our positive progress would be that, since we've let more happen with us, the residual has worked away more rapidly, and consequently, life in its purpose moves forward for us. Things are happening in a way which people normally say as being beyond anyone's capacity to plan, yet they are happening with you and are increasingly of an amicable nature.

It should be quite obvious that this entire experiencing takes place over some extent of time. One could measure that either against a clock, so say in days, weeks and months, or one could look at events and their sequences. That is, you work with each and every sequence in this way, or at least as many as you can, and begin to notice how they change for you. You can in this case disregard looking at time, which is an artificial construct anyway.